D has taken a very conservative stance of saying it is sometimes right to change church while it is sometimes wrong. In a sense he has proposed something very wishy-washy and I believe his definitions are rather unclear. As I have said in the first part of my opening, what if a person believes the doctrine of the church is wrong when the person himself is wrong? My previous analogy of the bowtie wearing Christian should prove this point.
Rather if D would like to propose doctrine, the imbalanced church and reluctance to change as circumstances, he should make the signs clearer and more objective instead of putting it into the hands of the christian and say do whatever you think.
I have said less than D, but I believe that I have already pointed out many fallacies in his thinking. Thus I close my opening.
-Shadow
Wednesday, May 21, 2008
In Reply: To Digress
There are a errors in your thinking my dear friend. Firstly, just because something is of natural origin does it mean it is not of God? Does not God use human means to reach others?
Secondly, are you saying that conversions can be not of God? Surely that is not true, for how can salvation which is by definition something given by God, be something that is not of God?
I believe the balancing point is that just because some experiences are natural, does not mean it is not of God. However since some experiences are natural, we have to be wise in differentiating between what is humanly induced and what is truly a God experience. A question though, even if some are humanly induced, might they not be of God since they would help increase a person's faith? Nevertheless you make a good point in saying that reliance on such experiences should not become the bedrock of proper christian faith.
-D
Secondly, are you saying that conversions can be not of God? Surely that is not true, for how can salvation which is by definition something given by God, be something that is not of God?
I believe the balancing point is that just because some experiences are natural, does not mean it is not of God. However since some experiences are natural, we have to be wise in differentiating between what is humanly induced and what is truly a God experience. A question though, even if some are humanly induced, might they not be of God since they would help increase a person's faith? Nevertheless you make a good point in saying that reliance on such experiences should not become the bedrock of proper christian faith.
-D
Tuesday, May 20, 2008
To Digress
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Sq-YUdq1OI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DylNVUN_3I&feature=related
This is a bit of a distraction but these videos have just caught my attention. Now generally you might expect me to refute what is going on, but rather I am going to do the opposite. I am going to question our faith. Please watch the video first as it is essential to understanding the point I am about to make.
Before I begin, let me first state that there are a few large gaping loopholes in Derren's experiment such as expecting every pastor in the whole world to be trained hypnotist's and cold readers. However a valid point is made, "If these conversions can be made just because of natural circumstances, then is there really something supernatural?" Now let us not talk about conversions alone but rather all kinds of "spiritual" experiences.
It is commonplace to see people cry under the presence of God and feel so touched and yet they can just walk out of the place without a single change or dare I propose even leave without conviction. With all the brilliant and dazzling lights, with superb music, the jumping up and down, and of course the statements of faith; are these just items to help 'suggestibility'? Many would say, but these are all to help a person get closer to God. Well, that is exactly what 'suggestibility' is. Many a time we say we feel a great high during worship, sadly I have felt the same when listening to other music.
Let me drop the bombshell. This is just my bias opinion, but I agree with Derren Brown. Many times what we experience in church is just pure hype.
Such actions are by no means wrong. It is like closing our eyes when we pray, the action of closing our eyes actually help to keep us from being distracted. Nevertheless, it is the actual act of praying to God that is important, not the closing of our eyes. In primarily charismatic circles however, the 'closing of eyes' has become the main focus. But it needs to come to a place where we can go past all these things.
I remember in church one time a pastor said that the service must not be predictable so as to prevent the church from being "religious" and being "stuck in a certain culture". The same night, I read CS Lewis' Letters to Malcolm where he believes a service should always be the same. That is because it is not the service that matters, but the focusing on God. A service that always changes makes people distracted and deters focus. I believe both sides have certain truths, but I have begun to lean more on CS Lewis' side.
How can we come to a place where emotions do not matter anymore(not that emotions are not important but rather we place God before our emotions)? Where our decisions to praise God does not depend on how well we feel. How can we worship like those in persecuted countries where they can sit for hours listening to God's word? There is certainly no glamour in that, and many a strong Christian including myself would never sit for 6 hours straight just absorbing God's word. What makes the Bible so beautiful for them eventhought they have to walk miles to go for meetings, eventhough they sing songs that are decades old, eventhough there is no great pentacostal preacher?
What made those in the Old Testament love God so much? They did not have the priviledge that we have of knowing Jesus. They did not have the Holy Spirit. They were not able to communicate with God whenever and wherever they wanted. They had to slave to bring cows and sheep to the temple each week. What made David sing such beautiful praises and dance naked when the Jews regained the ark of the covenant.
Last comment, many a person would say they do not really know how to hear God's voice. How can we say we truly love and have a relationship with Him if we cannot communicate? Food for thought indeed: is our faith based on a real relationship with God or just suggestibility? Are we looking for the next high and spiritual experience or are we longing to sit before the feet of Jesus? That is another interesting question that can become a future debate, since there are so many things that we deem is religious which is just human, what is actual relationship with God?
-shadow
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DylNVUN_3I&feature=related
This is a bit of a distraction but these videos have just caught my attention. Now generally you might expect me to refute what is going on, but rather I am going to do the opposite. I am going to question our faith. Please watch the video first as it is essential to understanding the point I am about to make.
Before I begin, let me first state that there are a few large gaping loopholes in Derren's experiment such as expecting every pastor in the whole world to be trained hypnotist's and cold readers. However a valid point is made, "If these conversions can be made just because of natural circumstances, then is there really something supernatural?" Now let us not talk about conversions alone but rather all kinds of "spiritual" experiences.
It is commonplace to see people cry under the presence of God and feel so touched and yet they can just walk out of the place without a single change or dare I propose even leave without conviction. With all the brilliant and dazzling lights, with superb music, the jumping up and down, and of course the statements of faith; are these just items to help 'suggestibility'? Many would say, but these are all to help a person get closer to God. Well, that is exactly what 'suggestibility' is. Many a time we say we feel a great high during worship, sadly I have felt the same when listening to other music.
Let me drop the bombshell. This is just my bias opinion, but I agree with Derren Brown. Many times what we experience in church is just pure hype.
Such actions are by no means wrong. It is like closing our eyes when we pray, the action of closing our eyes actually help to keep us from being distracted. Nevertheless, it is the actual act of praying to God that is important, not the closing of our eyes. In primarily charismatic circles however, the 'closing of eyes' has become the main focus. But it needs to come to a place where we can go past all these things.
I remember in church one time a pastor said that the service must not be predictable so as to prevent the church from being "religious" and being "stuck in a certain culture". The same night, I read CS Lewis' Letters to Malcolm where he believes a service should always be the same. That is because it is not the service that matters, but the focusing on God. A service that always changes makes people distracted and deters focus. I believe both sides have certain truths, but I have begun to lean more on CS Lewis' side.
How can we come to a place where emotions do not matter anymore(not that emotions are not important but rather we place God before our emotions)? Where our decisions to praise God does not depend on how well we feel. How can we worship like those in persecuted countries where they can sit for hours listening to God's word? There is certainly no glamour in that, and many a strong Christian including myself would never sit for 6 hours straight just absorbing God's word. What makes the Bible so beautiful for them eventhought they have to walk miles to go for meetings, eventhough they sing songs that are decades old, eventhough there is no great pentacostal preacher?
What made those in the Old Testament love God so much? They did not have the priviledge that we have of knowing Jesus. They did not have the Holy Spirit. They were not able to communicate with God whenever and wherever they wanted. They had to slave to bring cows and sheep to the temple each week. What made David sing such beautiful praises and dance naked when the Jews regained the ark of the covenant.
Last comment, many a person would say they do not really know how to hear God's voice. How can we say we truly love and have a relationship with Him if we cannot communicate? Food for thought indeed: is our faith based on a real relationship with God or just suggestibility? Are we looking for the next high and spiritual experience or are we longing to sit before the feet of Jesus? That is another interesting question that can become a future debate, since there are so many things that we deem is religious which is just human, what is actual relationship with God?
-shadow
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